The real pro-Israel Lobby

I guess we need to move.. turns out the indians want america back

No, it isn't. But it is certainly easy to argue that point now, isn't it? What with you all comfortable in either the US or Australia. Well guess what- as Joules has pointed out-the Native Americans AND, it seems, the Aboriginal people want all of their land back. I mean come on...they were their first. I mean they were just taken over by might. Better just give them back all their land and we'll just up and leave.

That's what you are asking from the Palestinians. The point is you can't change history. Well unless, it seems, you are Jewish?

For the tenth million time, there was NO STATE called palestine. The region was peopled by arab and jews (palestinians didn't even call themselves palestinians 'til Hussein of Jordan threw them out and told Israel that these troublemakers were now Israel's responsibility. ) The jews do not rewrite history, they don't have to. But I will say they are not nearly as competent as the arabs are at spreading lies and antisemitic propaganda.

By the way, do you live in the US? If you do, you are also living on stolen Indian land. When you vacate your property and return it to its rightful owners, then you can attack Israel based on falsehoods carefully crafted by bigots. Until then, you are a squatter and a hypocrite.

ralphie see post #3 for the real facts

Hey ralphie.

Jdoyle and the rest of the Palestinian Pity Patrol reflexively avoid the real facts, e.g. no independent state called Palestine ever existed.

More to the point, they can't stomach Israel's miraculous success in transforming itself from a backwater of swamps and deserts into a first world country all in the space of a century.

They like to concoct this parallel universe where the Palestinian Arabs were living in some sort of utopia until the evil Jewish invaders showed up and ruined everything.

The most ironic part is their refusal to admit that most Muslim regimes would rather spend their last dollar arming terrorists or fighting Israel than ensuring their own people have food and clean water.

Right jdoyle?

What about Abyssinia? Taiwan? Bengal...

Abyssinia exists today as Ethiopia.

Taiwan is populated largely by mainland Chinese people. 1-2% of the population of Taiwan is aboriginal.

Bengal is controlled by India and Bangladesh.

These examples don't do much to support your argument. Or really any argument...

More to the point, they can't stomach Israel's miraculous success in transforming itself from a backwater of swamps and deserts into a first world country all in the space of a century.

And it is miraculous indeed! (for more information about the non-political aspects-- Israel's amazing achievements "beyond the struggle"-- please visit the NV group "Amazing Israel").

EXCELLENT!

Prof. Dr, Harry Krishna, INABSAB

wow-it must be immaculate conception! A miracle. A holy miracle, call the pope. There are people who call themselves Palestinians who have lived on the land now claimed by Isreal forever--but they came from nowhere-must be they are directly from GOD.

Whatever aRTieA...

So why don't you let everyone know how I attacked you now that its deleted? Because it wasn't an attack, really, as much as it was an admonishment. Just because I feel that you don't reflect the type of attitude that the COH is supposed to encourage you delete my post? Do you not write sarcastic remarks towards people? Do you not accuse people of being racist? Please don't delete this but rather answer the questions as I am making no accusations or saying you do anything. You STILL haven't explained your accusations of racist remarks. You've only said that they ARE and you stand by them.

I don't feel like you want to engage in a healthy learning discussion or debate. You call someone racist and bigoted and that's ok? You accuse and don't back up your reasoning and that's ok? I see the community, as they should have, has collapsed your comment. Don't you think it a little ironic how you are really trying to control the direction of this discussion?

In the comment you deleted I claimed that I wouldn't be writing again, but your deletion sort of forced my hand into...well what did I say earlier would happen...I'm defending myself! Wow...didn't see that coming. For someone lobbying for tolerance I'm not really seeing it in action aRTieA. Am I missing it? Do I get to delete your comment earlier below when you supposed I was racist?

Don't you think this is all a little hypocritical? That was my point in the comment you deleted anyways. I am no way attacking you. I'm simply asking you to explain your accusations previously and you won't. I clearly laid out my point of view below and you make tongue and cheek comment fixes like:

The point is you can't change history. Well unless, it seems, you are seahawks76?

What's with that?

wow-it must be immaculate conception! A miracle. A holy miracle, call the pope.

Are you some sort of anti-Catholic bigot?

why are you calling me one? why? don't you believe in miracles?

Let's look at this a bit differently. Let's look at this as a matter of land usage, rather than ownership. If one group of people are subsistence farmers, herdsmen and the like; infant mortality is high, standards of living haven't changed above mere subsistence level for hundreds of years, and there is no capital to invest in infrastructure (roads, hospitals, water supplies, electricity) to improve standards of living.

Another group are farmers also, but have other skills and trades as well. This group has capital to invest in infrastructure, the skills to build said infrastructure and does so, and thus are able to reduce infant mortality and raise the overall standard of living. While they are at it, they move from subsistence farming to commercial farming thus making the land a net exporter of produce, build industries which create wealth and more capital to invest to improve infrastructure, etc.... Did I mention these were available to the native inhabitants, as well?

Which of these groups makes better use of the land?

smartie A- As to calling me immature, you are just falling into my trap, so in the end intellectual superiority trumps racism and bigotry...

Man, you call yourself intellectual and you don't even know the definition of the words you use. Really smart one, you are.

The point is you can't change history. Well unless, it seems, you are Jewish?

First off, that was a question, not a remark. Hence the question mark genius. And please explain how that QUESTION is racist. Because I reference a particular group of people at all doesn't make me racist or bigoted. You really need to get a dictionary.

As to calling me immature, you are just falling into my trap,

So you are blatantly outright saying that you are simply trolling your thread? Please see comments below. You obviously don't want to discuss the issue, you'd rather mudsling. Way to go buddy!

Haaretz...The Israeli equivalent of NYTimes.....Liberal Rag..... Why not quote the Detroit Free Press on this subject.

LOLOLOLOL
so an isreali paper disagrees with the hard right wing ideas presented here and suddenly it should be dismissed as "liberal"
you dont address any of the info provided.. you just dismiss the entire thing as Liberal.

Funny thing is.. had he published any other paper on the planet.. it would have been antisemitic.

What is the "event" here? Just asking for clarification. And as for "Major Christian Organizations" as signatories? Where are they? I never heard of these Christian groups in the US. Who are they . They are not major.

This letter, signed by four major Christian and Jewish organizations, presents a very different viewpoint on Middle East policy, particularly the Arab-Israel conflict. It was published today as a full page ad in the Washington Jewish Week as follows:

So then, commoncents-1199473, you can prove that the article is wrong?

jDoyle...Israel has it's Lefties and righties and Israeli Islamists just as we do in this country. It's allowed in a Democracy. This article helps to understand the dilema:

ISRAELI AND Jewish Israel-bashers constitute a major, perhaps insuperable, obstacle to any attempt to defend Israel in the court of world opinion. Anyone attempting to defend Israel abroad will inevitably be confronted with some statement characterizing Israel as a racist, apartheid state, perpetrating war crimes against the Palestinians, from the mouth of an Israeli academic or journalist. The fact that the source is Jewish or Israeli is assumed to provide credibility.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1251804481169

Suspiciously that still does not prove my facts are wrong.

"That was 3000 years ago and the only thing they have in common is their religion. The Palestinians are the true decedents of those early; Israelites" More delusional thinking. Jews have always lived there. The arabs didn't get them all though god knows they tried.

Sure ralphie, keep repeating the myth and some day you will believe it LOL.

Your "facts", not mine. I believe it already because it's true. And, if you are "palestinian", then you are NOT the "true" Israelite. Sorry to burst that bubble.

Your "facts", not mine.

Right mine are the real facts. Glad you admit it.

JDoyle:

From Wikipedia:

Roman destruction of Judea

Main article: Jewish-Roman wars Roman rule continued until a revolt from 66-70 culminated in the capture of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple, the centre of the national and religious life of the Jews throughout the world. After this event, Judea formed a separate Roman province, governed by a legate, at first pro praetore and later pro consule, who was also the commander of the army of occupation. The complete destruction of Jerusalem, and the settlement of several Greek and Roman colonies in Judea, indicated the express intention of the Roman government to prevent the political regeneration of the Jewish nation. Nevertheless, forty years later the Jews put forth efforts to recover their former freedom. With Israel exhausted, they strove, in the first place, to establish upon the ruins of Hellenism actual commonwealths in Cyrene, Cyprus, Egypt, and Mesopotamia. These efforts, resolute but unwise, were suppressed by Trajan (115-117), and under Hadrian the same fate befell the attempt of the Jews of Israel to regain their independence (133-135). From this time on, in spite of unimportant movements under Antoninus, Marcus Aurelius, and Severus, the Jews of Palestine, reduced in numbers, destitute, and crushed, lost their preponderance in the Jewish world. Jerusalem had become, under the name "Ælia Capitolina," a Roman colony, a city entirely pagan. The Jews were forbidden entrance, under pain of death.

From the Jewish Virtual Library:

The Jewish state comes to an end in 70 AD, when the Romans begin to actively drive Jews from the home they had lived in for over a millennium. But the Jewish Diaspora ("diaspora" ="dispersion, scattering") had begun long before the Romans had even dreamed of Judaea. When the Assyrians conquered Israel in 722, the Hebrew inhabitants were scattered all over the Middle East; these early victims of the dispersion disappeared utterly from the pages of history. However, when Nebuchadnezzar deported the Judaeans in 597 and 586 BC, he allowed them to remain in a unified community in Babylon. Another group of Judaeans fled to Egypt, where they settled in the Nile delta. So from 597 onwards, there were three distinct groups of Hebrews: a group in Babylon and other parts of the Middle East, a group in Judaea, and another group in Egypt. Thus, 597 is considered the beginning date of the Jewish Diaspora. While Cyrus the Persian allowed the Judaeans to return to their homeland in 538 BC, most chose to remain in Babylon. A large number of Jews in Egypt became mercenaries in Upper Egypt on an island called the Elephantine. All of these Jews retained their religion, identity, and social customs; both under the Persians and the Greeks, they were allowed to run their lives under their own laws. Some converted to other religions; still others combined the Yahweh cult with local cults; but the majority clung to the Hebraic religion and its new-found core document, the Torah.

In 63 BC, Judaea became a protectorate of Rome. Coming under the administration of a governor, Judaea was allowed a king; the governor's business was to regulate trade and maximize tax revenue. While the Jews despised the Greeks, the Romans were a nightmare. Governorships were bought at high prices; the governors would attempt to squeeze as much revenue as possible from their regions and pocket as much as they could. Even with a Jewish king, the Judaeans revolted in 70 AD, a desperate revolt that ended tragically. In 73 AD, the last of the revolutionaries were holed up in a mountain fort called Masada; the Romans had besieged the fort for two years, and the 1,000 men, women, and children inside were beginning to starve. In desperation, the Jewish revolutionaries killed themselves rather than surrender to the Romans. The Romans then destroyed Jerusalem, annexed Judaea as a Roman province, and systematically drove the Jews from Palestine.

No record of the Jewish people being deported? You should read more.

Sorry about the bolds in my previous. Not mine, they were links emdedded @ the sites I garnered them from. I would have done it differently. :-)

JDoyle:

The Romans did not exile peoples and they could not have done so even if they had wanted to. They did not have trains and trucks to deport entire populations. That kind of logistics did not exist until the 20th century

Do you honestly think the Romans gave two squirts of rancid owl@!$%# (much less any Roman transport) for how the Jews got out? It was get out or a fielders choice of death or enslavement.

no israel has.. by having a completely disreguard for it's promises to us and it's commitment as a nation to the world.

jDoyle...after our many hours of discussion and research on this subject, it is clear that you remain hostile to the facts

All the research has proved that I am correct: its the Palestinians' land, not the land of Zionists from Europe.

Good for you jdoyle...keep believing that.

What about the Jews (not the Zionists) from the land of Palestine about 3000 years before the Zionists from Europe? Huh? What about them? Or does your research prove that they didn't exist!

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! for this article! It supports exactly what You and I and so many others have been saying. The land belongs to Israel! Get over it!

I repeat, "Obama has done more to raise ant-semitisms ugly head throughout the world than anyone has since the 1940's...

jDoyle...after our many hours of discussion and research on this subject, it is clear that you remain hostile to the facts. What you are stubbornly hanging onto can lead only to war. Do you really want that to happen?

Have you ever thought of putting him on ignore? I did-- found I wasn't missing much except his personal attacks (he was recently suspended for violating the COH). Try putting him on ignore for a few days -- you might find it makes your NV experience more pleasant-- and more meaningful.

krishnas right, you know. ignore is bliss.

aRTieA- I'd like you to explain how what anything he just posted is "racist"? Throwing a claim like that is rather poor. As far as I see it, based on your accusation, I could say the same of you towards Palestinians.

"You don't agree with me on Jewish descent and land rights so you are racist!"

Silly.

And, for the record, just because you claim that you hope someone chokes and dies in another language like you did there doesn't make it ok.

Firstly, I apologize for the mistranslation. Slander, really? Dramatic much? Must be from banging one's head against the wall.

Secondly, Excuse me?

Racism: "a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race."

Bigot: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance.

Could you define how the statements fit this definition of racism? Bigotry, ehh...borderline. But he clearly isn't referring to ALL Christians or Jews. He specifically states "rabit Jewish Zionists" and "rabid Christian Bible-Thumpers". He also refers to, specifically fundamental and evangelical Christians. All Jews aren't Zionists. All Christians aren't fundamentalist or evangelical. Heck, I consider myself Christian and I am often very angered by Evangelical political pot stirring. Could he have chosen better vocabulary to get his point across? Absolutely. Is he a bigot? Certainly debatable but I think, really, neither of us think so after you really think about it.

But a racist he is not. And I'd say I am also far from racist. I also don't askew words. Mistranslate maybe. :) So let's look at these "racist" comments:

I know you radicals have this longing to hasten the day when your precious Jesus can come back and take his throne in Jerusalem.

"Radicals" refer to a position of belief or political stance, hardly to a race. And for the record, he doesn't have to like Jesus OR fundamentalist evangelical Christians. That doesn't make him racist or a bigot. Dislike is not intolerance. It makes him also dislike Right Wing Neo-Cons who reside in the Bible belt of the US. Not a racist.

You know if we followed the logic of these rabid Jewish zionists and rabid christian Bible-beaters, we Anglos would all have to leave America and turn over all the land here in the USA back to the native Americans.

Hmmm...I can see where you are trying to go with this one but aaaaaaanngh! Sorry, wrong again. Because he is referring to his heritage(and the like people in the country he lives in) as a means to separate himself from the Natural Born residents of the continent that is North America to make a point does not make him racist. In fact, his point is very valid. This article and writers in this thread essentially believe people of Jewish heritage are rightfully owed the land they have now and MORE, regardless of history later than that of the Bible. By that logic then all people not of ancient descent according to location should leave Hawaii, Australia, the entirety of North and South America, Africa and more.

And I'd like to point out to you and everyone else reading this that you still have not pointed out HOW these comments are racist, you've simply stated that they are and you stand by that. You lay claim but don't say why.

I think throwing around labels like bigot and racist are dangerous and leave scant room for dialogue as you leave someone reeling to defend one's self rather than expressing beliefs. But perhaps that's what you are going for. I'm offended that you would insinuate that I am racist and while you are claiming "slander", I am now claiming "libel".

And finally, just for the record, disagreeing with the moves made by the government of Israel does not make someone Anti-Semetic, bigoted or racist. Anti-Semitism is in relation to race, ethnic background, culture and religion. NOT Political Policy.

"Gai klop zich kop in vant"

Pssst: "Gai shlog dein kup en vant" - is the proper saying.

knock heads in what?

Go bang your head against the wall.

All this coming from a viner that has attacked people who don't support Obama as being racists and bigots. Israel supporter, Ignore servus. Read some of his comments and you will find that selective racism and hypocrisy is Aok in his world.

Their history there goes back as far or further than the Hebrews.

Considering the Arabs in Israel and Jordan didn't call themselves 'Palestinians' until the 1960's (the P.L.O. formed in 1964), I wouldn't call 45 years much of a history.

Then comes this howler.

I know you radicals have this longing to hasten the day when your precious Jesus can come back and take his throne in Jerusalem. This is why you are so hell-bent on exterminating the Palestinians...

Even the most inflexible Jewish settlers and evangelicals think the most expedient solution to the conflict is to relocate the Palestinians in the West Bank to Jordan. Jordan itself is 70% Palestinian anyway and the most likely place for a future Palestinian state. The simply have to depose the Hashemite monarchy and rename the country Palestine.

The Arab side, in contrast, has never hid its agenda of genocide against the Jewish population of Israel, starting with the Mufti of Jerusalem in WWII, the Arab League in the 1948 war, the P.L.O. in the 1960's, and, most blatant of all, groups like Hamas and Hezbollah to this very day.

At the end of the day, the extremists will fight Israel until they are broke and starving, then cry the blues to the U.N. and bleeding heart idiots in Europe.

^hahahaaa....reposts his comments the newsvine community collapses and doesn't answer a single question I pose regarding his statements...

^unsuccessful troll is unsuccessful.

Isn't it obvious after all these decades that it is the Palestinians who have and are being exterminated? Isn't it obvious after all these decades that Israel intends to eventually take all the land that international law says belongs to the Palestinians, until the Palestinians have nothing left?

Of course the Palestinians attack Israel. You would too. Israel takes land illegally, builds new settlements. They've been doing it for decades and just this week announced they intend to start again. The Palestinians retalitate. But then Israel, and stupid, ignorant Americans point the finger at the Palestinians as if they had no good reason for attacking Israel.

and yall call for the killing of all palistinains.. especially the israel right wing that think they should just "take the hit" cause after all we now like japan and even germany.
So kill them all off and wait 40 years for the world to quit being upset about it.

ISreal has been breaking it's own laws with the settlements.. building on land they STOLE LONG AFTER the 1968 war.

Wow, you guys really are quite fun! Yeah, Israel wasn't invaded several times since its founding, and Jews weren't the victims of countless muslim terrorist attacks. Forget the league of Nations, the British Mandate, the UN founding, and subsequent hostilities against Israel. Forget hamas and its charter, and forget arafat's call for a million martyrs to march on Jerusalem. Sure has been fun talking to you two. just wow....

turn of fox news

Another turn for the wurst?

YOU again and your lies man !!!

LOL!

Persistant lil' critter, ain't he? :)

Prof. Dr, Harry J. Krishna, BSA

Isn't it obvious after all these decades that it is the Palestinians who have and are being exterminated?

No. Quite the opposite.

A population that has grown from 600,000 in 1948 to over 4 million today (Arabs in Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank) is clearly not being exterminated.

I think servus has yet to master the difference between + and - signs.

A sixty-plus year fait accompli, suck it up and drive on already.

A population that has grown from 600,000 in 1948 to over 4 million today (Arabs in Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank) is clearly not being exterminated.

All this from massive capital investment in infrastruture brought to you by...... THE JEWS. Thanx, BJK. A very good comment.